Name: Murphy, Father Larry (Lawrence F.), S.J.

Position: Theology (1963-65), Classics (1963 -64), Lecturer in Theology (1965-66, 1970-71), Assistant Professor, Religious Studies(1971-74), Associate Professor, Religious Studies (1974-84), Professor, Religious Studies (1984-97); Board of Governors
Dates associated with Saint Mary's: 1963-1996

Scope and Content: Major topics include: Father Murphy's educational background; residence stories; religious studies classes; religious differences between universities; attitudes about other religions and their attitudes about Catholics; co-education; changes to education with secularization; discontent with President Carrigan and resulting unionization of faculty.

Interview conducted by Angela Baker, 1993.

Transcribed by Sarah Brennan

Transcript: 

AB:    All right, well, let's start with a little bit of background information on you...       Could you state your full name?

LM:    Lawrence Francis Murphy

AB:    And your date, and place of birth...

LM:    Montreal, January 11, 1931.

AB:    k.. Could you describe your educational background?

LM:    Well, I went to grade school at St. Ignatius Parochial School in, on, what was it, West Broadway, near to my home on Patricia Avenue, and then after  I finished that, I went to Loyola High School which was a Jesuit high-school and I did four years there, and then after fourth year high I entered the Jesuits, So all the rest of my education then was, you see, in the Jesuits, do you want me to go on with that?

AB:    Sure.

LM:    That would be in the Curriculum Vite.. so what you did in those days was you went up to Guelph, that was where they started you off, that's what they called the noviciate, so I spent two years, the first two years in Guelph, we did some Latin and some middle Greek or something but we didn't do anything really academic, so the first two years were more or less like a, what they call an {Neviticut} you see, which is really a time of prayer and contemplation, and spiritual reading, sort of a strong spiritual formation. Then I did two years of what they call Junior Eight, which was really the equivalent of like a college degree, you see,  something like, we did English, we did a lot of Latin,  in those days there was a lot of Classics, you see Latin and Greek Classics, so we did a lot of Latin and Greek Classics and we did I am trying to think what else did we do, we didn't have much in the way of History, but we had two years there of Literature, English Literature, Greek and Roman Literature, umm, then, so four years of Guelph, then we did in those days, you see 3 years of Philosophy, so next year I went down to Toronto, see ‘47 I entered, so ‘51 I went to Toronto, ‘51 to ‘44, ‘54 I was in Toronto, and we studied Philosophy intensely, for 3 years, then you see, at the end of that, you had the equivalent of a BA, which was given, I think, through the University of Montreal, so therefore, then, after that, I went out and, as part of this, regular part of the Jesuit training, in those days it was very, it was quite rigorous, I mean nobody got, well, there were very few exceptions to this you see, it was a long formation. So I did three years of teaching. I taught, I went down to, let's see now, ...I am getting confused already. No I went to, so after the Philosophy, what happened was, they sent me to the University of Toronto for a Masters in Classics, so, I went to the University of Toronto and started this Masters degree,  and I was halfway full.. through it, the coursework, it's a two year Master. One year course work and then one year on the Masters courses, and I was halfway through the first year when somebody got sick down in Kingston, so I went down to Kingston to take his place because he was the Latin teacher. He died actually, so I finished my first year there, so I taught at Kingston for half a year, then I came back up to Toronto the next year and finished off the Masters. They were very good to me at the University of Toronto. They just simply said, well look, you go, the first year was sort of a make - up to the equivalent of an Honors you see because we hadn't done that much Latin and Greek, especially, actually I hadn't done that much Greek in my faith so the first year I had to make up on my own while I taught this one course  at Kingston, at  Regiopus High-school and then I went back to Regiopus High-school the next year and taught there for a whole full year and then .. there's something wrong here and then because the year after that I went out to Campion High-school  which is in Regina but I seem to have missed a year. I spent years in the {Regency} so how could that be?  How memory slips eh? I have to look up my own Curriculum-Vite to see what happens here. I don't suppose you want to stop the tape for that do you? It's not that important.

AB:    Oh sure, I'll stop the tape.

[tape stops]

LM:    So I spent, after Philosophy I spent half the year in Toronto and I finished the second part of the year teaching at Kingston. I came back the next year and did a whole year at the University of Toronto and then the third year I went back to Kingston for a whole year to teach.  I taught English and Latin and that was pretty well it I think. I can't think of any other stuff I taught and the next year I was sent out to Regina for high-school. We had a high-school out there called Campion High School. I taught at Campion High-school and after that I came back and went into what we call Theology, which was direct preparatory for your priesthood so I did a third of Theology at Regis College which was then located downtown on Spadina and Front St. where the Telegram building later came and now it's gone I gather. It was a real dump.  So right downtown there I used to play softball. If you were a good left-hand hitter you could hit them to the train tracks. But you had to go and get the ball if you did that.  So I spent three years there and then we moved out to our new Seminary in Toronto on Bayview Street, way up in the north almost as far as Steeles and I was ordained there in 1961.  I spent the fourth year in Theology and then I went down to the States,  to Palmford, Connecticut and I spent a year there, was was almost like going back into the [unclear] for a whole year so four years of Theology there. It's a pretty rigorous training in preparation for religion.  Ok, so  at the end of, I went and did  tercianship, as it's called which is like going back into [unclear] again. It's pretty well strictly a full year of spiritual renewal, spiritual life, devout prayer and contemplation and so forth, not much academics and a lot of pastoral ministry. So, then at the end of that year I came back up to Halifax for the first time actually, and did part of that tercianship it's called, in the parish, which was then in the university because what is now the auditorium was then the parish church so I remember spending 6 weeks and that was when I first became familiar with Canadian Martyr's Parish in St. Mary's. Although I didn't know at the time I was going to be sent to Halifax the next year. So then I got back into the tercianship and then I got a letter from Father Hawkins saying that I was coming to St. Mary's the next year so I came to St. Mary's the next year to teach religion. But there was a course on the books in those days in Classics in Translation which everyone had to take before they could graduate and in those days. See all the courses were full year courses. So there was this, students took 4 years to get their BA or B.Sc. but all the students in Arts had to take a course called Classics in Translations, so,  I arrived you see, expecting to teach in the Theology Department because at that time everybody had to take  3 compulsory courses in Philosophy and 3 courses in what we called Theology and that was a big chunk out of your, you know,  the 20 courses I think it was - 6 and 5 and 5, 21 courses to graduate if I remember correctly for an Arts student  - took 6 in the first year I think. Yes, maybe wrong in that anyway so I was told by Father Fisher who was the Director and President at that time and the Jesuit Rector, that they needed someone to teach this course so I taught it and it. I had a huge class I remember that.   They were all there because there were 3 years of them. They couldn't graduate without it. Yeah and one of the students that was there was Eileen O'Leary who was one of the first members of the feminine persuasion to get into St. Mary's.  I can remember her distinctly.

AB:    Yes?

LM:    Well, she wasn't the first one, I think there was another girl named Jocelyn Grasby who had come into Engineering, but there were Masters students in Education before that but this, up to that time St. Mary's was strictly a male bastion. So that's what it was when I came. It was entirely boys with the exception of Eileen who certainly didn't take a quiet profile. She, you know she got into everything that there were quite mad about it so, ..

AB:    Really?

LM:    Oh yes! There's no doubt about it, but there was only one person so it didn't make any difference.  So, I taught for three years there. I think I taught that Classics course one year but the next year I taught Theology courses. I can't remember now just exactly what these courses were, but those Theology were all compulsory, but, I'll just say a little bit about the nature of the courses.  In all the years since I taught those courses form 1963 to 66 I have never come across a student who told me he didn't like them or disliked them.  Now I say this, not because of the changes that took place in 1970 I disagreed with, I didn't, but if you want to know a little bit about the Religion Department but because they were never the type of course where things were rammed down students throats, no.  In this sense, the students had to take them you see, so you never knew what you had in class, but they were serious academic courses.  You didn't sort of simply give one side of a question.   You know, and you didn't go in there and force feed or try to convert the students and we had I think we taught courses in Protestant Theology and other things like that you see in various subjects but it really was a Catholic institution at that time, very strongly Catholic although there were Protestant students there you see and those courses were good courses academically and they were taught well, so I spent three years there. Then the student body was bout 500 when I first came and all the resident students lived in the north wing and some of the younger priests like myself we lived in rooms in the residence. I don't know whether this is interesting or not.

AB:    Oh sure yes,

LM:    See, we used to live, I remember before I think of the residence. There was a suite, an office, a bedroom and a washroom see, and we occupied that, but then there was a man like Burt Burke or Pat Curran who was actually in charge of residence. During my time, under Father Hennessey, bur we were just there as advisors, but, I could tell you a thousand stories but I'll just tell you one little one that I remember. This was the summertime, around August, when the football team had come back, so there was nobody in the residence. So I came back to my room one night after supper, probably took a walk, came back to my room and the residence was empty, especially the first floor where I was, ‘cause I don't think the football players - No! all the boarders at that time lived in the north wing of the main building and there was only the main building at that time with the Chapel and nothing else - no library although I think by the time I left in 66 to go to doctoral studies the library was either, it was built. That's right because I remember Father Howell who died later, he was the librarian for two years there so they must have built that around 64. You can figure it out. Right, so anyway, This story I'll never forget, there was a man named Frank Archembeau and he was huge. He must have been about 280 pounds. You get more information from Bob Hayes but he was probably the best lineman we ever had in all the years I watched football at St. Mary's and there was another young fella named John Murphy, I think it was. So I came back to my room and I smelled something cookin'. Now Archembeau had been up - see they used to use the room across the hall from the priest's dining room which is now all Anthropology labs and things - that was the dining room for the students, so he had went up and he'd had two full meals and he was still hungry, so I smelled something cooking so I just got my keys out and went down the hall and undid the door and my gosh! I looked in there and have you ever seen those little coffee  - those little round  things that are just, are heaters to heat a coffee  pot? -  that had a steak which looked like the size of half a cow. So I took one look at this and I realized what had happened. Archembeau was hungry and he'd gone downtown, and he and John had gone downtown and he had bought the biggest steak they could find but then how to cook it?  So they got this coffee pot, went into the room , locked the door and put the steak on the coffee pot and were trying to cook the thing, so I just closed the door and walked away. (chuckle)

      But it gives you some idea of what things went on in the residence.  I mean the doors, as far as I can remember, the doors, you know everybody had to be in their room around 8 o'clock and boy! you didn't play any radios!  And you know, lights out around 11, not that lots of students didn't sneak out and things like that, but if they snuck out they might come home to find Father Hennessey ... in the bed waiting for them!  But he was very good. Did you hear any Hennessey stories?

AB:    Yeah, yeah.

LM:    Yeah, you probably have a lot of them but he was very good, but he knew exactly what they were doing and anytime any of the students went down and got into trouble at the Newfoundland Club which was a rough place in those days - he'd always do down and bail them out before they got a police record so he was very kind to them. But he knew what was going on, pretty well. Although the students had their... they had their fun too! So it was a small school in the sense that there was about 500 students and I don't want to idealize as if it was, those were the good days and later times weren't. No! Because I don't think we had the academic qualifications - standard that we had later but everybody in a sense, you knew people. You knew almost because all the faculty got together in the same faculty lounge of all departments and faculties. They were all, they only had one faculty lounge on the top floor of the residence building in the northern wing today, where our Religious Studies offices are now. So you knew people and there was a great sort of spirit in the school especially with the sports. We had more American students that we do now and most of our good students were American students because at that time, given the religious divisions in the province. You see, it was unthinkable for a Catholic student to go to Acadia or Mount Allison. You just presumed they were no longer Catholic and vice versa. A Baptist from the valley from Acadia to come to St. Mary's was unthinkable. I can still remember when the Baptist kids used to come up from Acadia for a basketball game and there would be almost a brawl at the front door where they bought the tickets and they would even throw fish on the floor out of contempt for the Catholics you see. That's the way it was in 64 to 66 but at the same time the university, the same time the whole world of the Catholic would be changed you see, with the Second Vatican Council in 1962 - 66.  I mean a lot of the things that I had learned subsequently seemed to be out of date and furthermore I could see the way the university was going and I could see, I mean I remember Father Frank Devine who was in the faculty of French saying that he could not find a person anywhere with a Ph.D. whom he could hire but I could see from the way that the university was going in general and the need for popular credidation if I was going to do the job you see of teaching at St. Mary's in the future I was going to need a doctorate.  So I decided to apply to get permission from my boss, the provincial.  I considered two possibilities. I could go to Germany and get one of these high fallutin' History degrees where you spend four years doing a thesis and you become an expert in a very narrow area or else go out to a university in the States like Markette which I liked very much. I went for a summer school where they had a broad program, a two year course work and two years of dissertation and so ended up doing my doctorate dissertation on Martin Luther see which was a sign of the times and the way in which the Catholic Church was opening out to other denominations in a much more friendlier way see and so, I spent 4 years at Markette and it was a very busy program.  Hardly came back to St. Mary's although I was expected to come back to St. Mary's, you see. So, I am going on more...

AB:    No, you're answering questions before I ask them...

LM:    Education, so I went out to the Markette in Milwaukee. It was a very good university at that time and an excellent faculty and I spent 4 years there and successfully completed my doctorate and they, I didn't come back to Halifax during that time, for various reasons, one of them being that my parents were living in Ottawa and so when I did get the chance to get away I went there and there was no reason to come back to Halifax.  It was a long way in those days and travel was much more difficult and so I didn't come back but it was quite clear when I left, to me anyway that the President had told me you've got to get your doctorate and come back.  This leads up to something, so that was in a sense the end of my formal education.  I came back to St. Mary's let's see now, 66 to 70 I was away, so I came back in 1970 and what I found was a school that was just changed remarkably. First of all the student body was when I left around 750.  It had gone from 500 to 750 in those 2 years. But, when I came home, If I remember the figures correctly, there were 2300 students I think now, and that would be including part-time and full-time and St. Mary's was always the leader in developing part-time Continuing Education and it really expanded.  But the student body had not grown enormously and also they had taken in the girls you see, so I found the school quite changed in that way - never bothered me at all because the only reason we hadn't taken in girls in the first place had nothing to do with the Jesuits. It was, because, all the Jesuit universities like Markette were co-ed: Fortham, Georgetown, you name it.  That's my assessment of the situation for what I understand of it but maybe you can get better information than that.  You probably got something from Father Stewart on that and how there was an attempt to merge the two universities?

AB:    Yeah.

LM:    And how it ended in disaster.  There was no way I guess. The Sisters were afraid of being dominated by the Jesuits. Anyway, it was remarkable at times the negative reaction from some of the people I knew at St. Mary's when I came back  -the negative reaction to the girls!  And the first couple of years it was really tough on the girls I think. A lot of the boys made it quite clear sorta that they felt that St. Mary's was a male school and they didn't take kindly to the girls coming in there and there were a few girls who acted very badly as a result. They sorta went overboard in trying to please the boys but I found the place - I found the place much better.  Now another, I finished the question about education was there anything else you wanted to ask me?

AB:    Oh well, you were going into lots of  other questions, like I wanted to know the effect that it had, like all the women coming.

LM:    Oh, Ok. Yeah, well that was my own personal feeling about it and I don't, I can't judge, see, the faculty had grown enormously too, so there was a real crisis there you see in the school and in this sense. When I came back because what had happened was that the population of the school had grown enormously, greatly, and this, here's a very significant change, you see, where, it was unthinkable for a student who was a Catholic to go to Acadia, from St. FX to go to Acadia or Mount  Allison and vice versa, well, I really got a shock one day because the first year I came back I think I was the faculty representative of the hockey team and  we went over to Prince Edward Island and we were - I always thought that the St. Mary's rink was the coldest rink in North America, but I found out that the PEI rink was the coldest rink in North America. - I was sitting there freezing and in between periods I was talking to a nice young man, you know PEI, I'm using later language, actually it was St. Dunstans then  - it was still St. Dunstans.  So, I was talking to a St. Dunstans campus police and we were talking about this and that and I asked the kid if he knew how cold it was, and he said, Oh yeah it's pretty cold here, but, I was asking him about the school, he really liked the school. Then he said something that just about floored me. He said you know next year I'm going to Acadia Father, he said, you know there's something there I want to take.  That just about - well, it really shocked me because it was then I began to realize what had happened and what had happened was, - sociologists can explore all they want to - what had happened was and it was just because, whether there was a loss of religion and faith, or whether this was a good development,  you can debate it until the cows come in but the simple fact was that there grew up a generation and they made up their mind that they were gonna go to school where they could get in and where their friends were, where their girlfriends were,  whatever the reason why students go to whatever university. They go for scholarships. That whole religious business you see just disappeared at St. Mary's. And it had already disappeared  when I came back although I don't think I was conscious of it.  Now this had great repercussions in the Religious Studies Department because this enormous growth took place and I don't know anything about those four years in-between except  what I hear second hand but the Religious Studies Department what happened was academically that, see the old system was just completely changed.  It was no longer Theology compulsory.  No longer was Philosophy compulsory, so the major change that took place academically was that the Department of, they had changed the name to Religious Studies because Theology sounded too much like you see, as if you were being preached at somehow and that's the point I wanted to make earlier. That was never the way it was because most students, most teachers that I knew there whether there was a tremendous switch that took place at St. Mary's over the four years there because the Bishop simply found, I think, that it was too much this growth... for his, too much of an expense for him and he could no longer finance it. But you can get that information elsewhere, you know, and I think that's simply what happened.  I've heard it said many times by people who were here, the Jesuits who were here would know.  The Bishop simply said after the Second Vatican Council, look my priority is not to run this university. I can't run this university anymore. So he went to the university, went to the government and they got a new charter and the new charter said you're going to give special attention not to Catholic but to Christian values, you see, so they did keep something in the charter that was very important you see, for religion to keep the religious dimension of the school. Now all the other schools in the region had the same problem. I won't go into detail with that.  But Acadia had gone through the same thing, so has Mt. Allison, so has St. FX,  so have they all. How do you keep your religious dimension?  Or do You?  but, effectively, it soon dawned on me that really St. Mary's was a secular university in that sense because the more the government came in and paid the bills, the more you know, the piper calls the shots.  So there was quite a change in those 4 years. From my going away and coming back and if I'd known that these changes were going on... I didn't really. I would have probably come back more during those 4 years and tried to keep in touch more than I did.

AB:    So it was around that time the first lay President came to the university?

LM:    That's right. I think for the simple reason, Father Stewart can probably give you more accurate information on this, but because I don't think there was a Jesuit who wanted the job.  So Edward Morris I think, was President for one year. And when I came back we used to have a beautiful campus out there you know.  That field out there was just magnificent.  You know, you could look out the back windows of the main building and there was just a gorgeous campus out there.  There must have been room for 4,5,6 football fields, but then when I came back they had built the Rice Building and the girls residences and they had begun - I can't remember the sequence of events - they began to work on the Loyola residence.  The high-rise but the big change you see was, I think the tremendous growth in the students, the administrative apparatus didn't keep up with that and I'm not blaming anybody so that's why we ran into a crisis.  Because the way the school was run you see was run on a paternalistic, you know, the Jesuit President and Rector, they more or less ran things and if there was a problem with the faculty, would they be ironed out more or less, but the faculty did not have a real set of hard and fast guidelines, rules, regulations and everything, no, I don't know if you want me to go into that?

AB:    Sure, yeah! So, that's leading up to unionization.

LM:    That's exactly right.  Now one of the most important things I experienced see in my education out of Markette was not so much the, well, the academic course I went to, but while I was there the US went through the whole business, you know, the civil rights movement and one of the central questions that came up, that has come up you know in religious thinking and it is still to this whole shift, you see, inside the Catholic Church and now in the Protestant Churches is to a greater awareness that well the churches are not in the position of dominance that they were, well so that, they're there and they're there to serve and should be lookin' after the poor. So what I learned form the civil rights, the whole civil rights struggle, being part of it,  took  place right on campus there there were fire bombings and everything else and I was in Milwaukee so that was a very big education there, so, what happened was, you see while I was away for various reasons the Department of Religions Studies had just become completely, far too many people, in it about 11, I've forgotten how many people there were, there were 11 people, like Father Tate who was Academic vice-president. He had tenure in the Department so there were,  we had Father Mateu who was a Spanish Jesuit who had been in the Bay of Pigs, was in, and he was on the faculty, on the department. He didn't really have a degree in Theology. We were very definitely, I would have to say over-staffed. So in comes Dr.Carrigan, you see. Now an awful lot could be said about Owen Carrigan and no doubt you're gonna hear, if you haven't heard plenty, you will hear plenty, see, but he came in as President and you know, he just, he seems to have taken the position, well you know, the way things are going in the university. He was gonna line up with the students you see and form an alliance against the faculty because that's certainly the impression I got.  And I know he said that to an outstanding person, whom I know quite well who was in a high academic position at the time.  That's all I‘m going to say. I'm not going to mention any names.  So what happened you see, I came back and I had already had many years in the department so I was, I suddenly got a letter barring me and the reason, he said to me I can't give you a tenure here, you see. There are no procedures anywhere. In other words the faculty up until that time had operated more or less to this benevolent paternalistic system, so here you had a President who came in as as far as I was concerned he listened to certain advice you see and decided he was going to fire certain people and clean up the whole place. Now I admit that our department was grossly over-staffed but there was a tremendous internal struggle there you see, certain people tried to clean out, get rid of all the clergy and, entirely, and there was tremendous internal struggle that went on but this was only one little part of what I would call the attack of Dr. Carrigan, in his vision and how he was going to you see, clean out what he thought was a lot of rot in the university and this was a big problem and everything. But I think one of the worst things he did was to try and get rid of the person who sort of, but the faculty began to see all this coming  and what really impressed me after all their years explaining there and talking about social justice and everything was just how quickly the faculty amalgamated, organized itself.  I watched these lay people from Commerce you know. You were dealing with people who were teaching industrial relations and so forth and they just formed a union so quickly  it was incredible and St. Mary's I think was the first I believe to form a union.  Now some of the things Dr. Carrigan did I think they were very unfortunate. There were two senior faculty, Levinstein and I can't think of the other man's name, old man in economics, see. These were both great scholars and instead of treating them by inviting them into his office and saying you know you've been here a long time, I think we really have to let you go and so forth, in the name of getting the thing organized you see, he just sent these letters.  That infuriated the faculty more than a lot of the other things that were done like firing a man who was Acting Head of the Faculty.  It wasn't a union then,  eh, so really Dr. Carrigan launched sort of an aggressive attack on the whole faculty in a way, following his own insight to put it kindly. You know, it was quite a shock to me to find suddenly that I was fired and was told, I mean here I was, I d given the university, I was still on the university staff in those four years.  I‘d given them 7 years and was told I was fired because of what? I wasn't given a chance you see, whether the department wanted me or not.  So anyway, there was a confrontation and a threat.  I can't remember if we threatened to strike or what but we certainly formed a union in a big hurry and then you see, what happened in the Religious Studies Department was that there were. They had all these procedures were set down all of a sudden, like right now for instance to give you an example. We just hired our first member in quite a few years, a member of the feminine persuasion, a very nice woman by the name of Anne-Marie Dalton you see, well, what do you have to do to advertise all across the country and you have to take every application and go through it and you have to sift it out, then you have to present at least three names to the committee.  It's all set down by the committee, so what came out of Dr. Carrigan's attack on the faculty, or attempt, see just to clean things out unilaterally was that there were so many procedures that where. Before the faculty could sit back and say well I can do my job not to worry about this stuff. All of a sudden we found that we were in meetings, meetings, meetings and the President couldn't do a thing without every little action being scrutinized because the faculty just lost trust.  So, furthermore they thought that he had been parachuted in you see, by certain people and that's one of the other things that all changed the whole method of hiring the President and reviewing the President and all these procedures that were suddenly built up, you see.  So, those were very very trying times. I don't think the students realized it but they were very very trying times in the faculty.  But out of it, kept out of it for me, all of it you see and our own department. We lost a lot of people. We lost Father Mateu, Father Hoffman got sick and had to leave, so I, we ended up with really a department of 4 people and for the rest of the years that I'd been there things have been very trying for us because after Carrigan. Because Carrigan couldn't really do anything. He didn't dare make a move you know, because there was a real antipathy. It was a very foolish, as I see it, to try to attack the faculty.  You can't run a university without the faculty and some poeple say the university is the faculty. Well, that's an exaggeration because the faculty are there to educate the students and the administration are there to facilitate the education of the students.  But there is a sense - see another thing that I would point to whether you want to ask me this question, I've probably taken too long anyway but, another thing I would point to as a significant change in the attitudes of faculty. See what always impresses me about St.Mary's is the fact that there are very competent people who are still there, see I could name many many names which could do much better in Toronto actually, or in other universities but they like the school and they stayed there, see their primary loyalty was to the school but what you began to find more and more as the 70's  went along and you find this more and more today is that the faculty  there is, which is so different for me, you see, because of my Jesuit upbringing but the faculty today, their first loyalty is to their field and where they exercise their field doesn't matter anyway at least that's the way it seems to me. Understand what I mean?

AB:    Yeah.

LM:    Their interests in their careers in History, I'm not saying it in a mean way or a negative way, that's just the reality of it. So there's a lot of people, so consideration for the place especially now all of a sudden, there's a very significant change which took place in the 70's. Before, was a situation where you could not get Ph. D's all of a sudden there was a complete glut in the market. do for the, for all the years I spent at St. Mary's which is 73 to 93, 20 years, we've never even considered the possibility of hiring somebody for 20 years because we simply couldn't hire anybody.  The administration I think has been very good to our department.  That we've always argued that we need at least 4 people to run a proper program and I think once Dr. Ozmon came things began to settle down. He's been a magnificent President who can really defuse tension. Who's recovered the confidence of the faculty you see and the university has really supported the Religious Studies Department in the sense that when they might be short of money, short of faculty as Commerce say grew and so forth they've always.. I don't know if it's ever been any real pressure or not but we never felt in the department, there's never been any real pressure to , we knew we couldn't get anymore  faculty.  They've always been very good to us in giving us part-times so we, in that sense for me, the tradition of the university has been carried on. We have two Catholic professors, two Protestant professors, not that it matters a great deal.  We all work in different areas and get along together very well. So, I take it. I don't want to keep you too long now.

AB:    I just want to see if we've covered everything.

LM:    Ok.

AB:    You made it pretty easy for me I think. Just maybe you can talk about how relationships with the students changed over the years while you were there, since the numbers changed so much over the time.

LM:    Well, I would say that it's hard to generalize over 30 years I mean, when we were a small school the alumni, the students came there formed a very strong bond to the school and it's not fair to say that students who go through today don't do that also because I've served on the Alumni Executive for the last 5 or 6 years, ever since Laurie Smith died. You see, there was always a Jesuit who was a moderator on the Executive which was a position of honor and you always attended the meetings to provide some kind of continuity with the past, so I held that position for how many years, 6 or 7 years, and I saw some very, very dedicated alumni from the contemporary period who gave an awful lot of their time you know to St. Mary's. I think the people I relate to in a way are the alumni I knew say more in the 63 to 66 and in that period in the 70's when the school was smaller and you knew people, you know. Now I feel I'm living in a much bigger university and I find things are much more impersonal like the biggest change I find in recent years is that your classroom numbers are getting, for the faculty, the classroom numbers are getting to the level of intolerable.  I don't know how the Faculty of English does it.  I don't know how these teachers can teach 300 students in English.  And give them essays and things like that. I think the numbers, the student body has grown three times and the pressure on the faculty is just enormous because I just find myself in the last few years with less and less time during the school year - it's like getting into a big tunnel and coming out at the end of the year, You feel the same way yourself and another thing, well, we've gone into an economic recession so there are enormous economic pressures on students right now.  Seems to me in the last few years you know, there's not much fun in the place in a way, university

END SIDE A

AB:    Go Ahead. 

LM:    I just find that the, I just find in general the school is much more impersonal now.  You don't know the faculty. You don't know the student body. The students are so busy they don't have the time to come into your office and talk in the way which they might have done in the past, unless you're one of those teachers who, you know, set down formal visits.  I don't like to do that. So it's the big changes I find that the university is facing financial problems and enormous pressure on faculty, it's all very tiring, very, very  hard. Of course, I'm getting older  (laughs) so by the time I'm finished a school year I've just about had it.

AB:    Well, are there any other events or activities that stand out in your mind?

LM:    Oh, I've always enjoyed the sports program. I think it's been in general a very good program and I think it's a very important program. I've always done a lot of research in the area of Luther and Theology which might not interest people too much but I don't want to give the impression of being one of these people only interested in sports at this school. But I think the sports program. Also a lot of other activities like the drama at St. Mary's has done a lot of good. I think St. Mary's has been outstanding in its concern for the underprivileged and also for the handicapped. I think we led in that in the beginning. We still lead. I think we have a very good President. A man who is really able to build, to win everybody's confidence, you know, defuse situations.  So I see a good future for the university although I think now they're gonna have to cut student enrollment. That's about the only thing.   Oh, I mean there's so many things I could talk about over 30 years but I better not! (laughs)  You'll be reading this stuff forever.

AB:    Ok.

LM:    So unless there was something specific you wanted ...

AB:    That's pretty much everything.

LM:    Ok. Good. Fine.  Hope I haven't kept you...

Tape Ends.